Russia and China, the (re)emergent
great powers and the impact in the world system
Jorge
Nascimento Rodrigues,
editor of Gurusonline.tv
A conversation with Dylan Kissane, author
of "2015
and the Rise of China: Power Cycle Analysis and the
Implications for Australia", published at Security
Challenges review
Quotations
"Is it possible for Russia to follow a 20th century
German path? Yes, I believe so. Is it likely? I think
it is more likely than not."
"On the long term trend, Russia is more likely
to experience a critical point on its power cycle curve
than China. Indeed, China's rise remains inevitable
and will continue towards 2030."
"As China continues to rise in power I think hard
power-projections are inevitable. Most would immediately
look to Taiwan as the obvious choice for Chinese power
projection but a focus only on Taiwan blinds the analyst
to the greater regional ambitions of China."
"The Chinese model (soft power, then hard power)
might be more effective in winning allies and achieving
Chinese ends in Asia."
"Though China is forecast to be the predominant
power in the world system in 2015, Japan is predicted
to reach power parity with the US at around 2030."
Dylan Kissane is currently
a Doctoral Student within the School of International
Studies of the University of South Australia (Adelaide,
Australia). His research is focused on realist international
relations theory, the nature and role of systemic anarchy
within it, and the possibilities for moving beyond the
assumption of anarchy in assessing the international
political system. He is based in Villeurbanne, France.
His website at www.dylankissane.com/
Do you think Russia can develop an historical similar
pattern with the Germany power cycle since the beginning
of the XX Century? I am not meaning that Putin or his
successors are an Hitler copy and Russia will change
from the present "mild" authoritarian regime
for a fascist and open imperialist one, but due the
decline in the power cycle and the inflection with Putin
emergence, can we assist in this window of 15 years
to a similar strategy of power projection and risk of
conflicts, for instance in the shatterbelt of Russia,
in Europe and Asia, or even in the Arctic?
Of the power curves I mapped, Russia's is closest to
emerging in a German-style pattern. A similar argument
might be made for the United States, however the rate
of rise and decline in the case of the US is less pronounced.
If this is the case then a similar strategy to German
expansionism of the 20th century might well emerge.
Eastern Europe - particularly East Moldova/Transnistria,
Georgia and perhaps East Ukraine to start with - would
be obvious targets of an expansionist Russia, as would
the Central Asian states. The Arctic, though, is an
interesting case as not only is the expansionism under
Putin already taking place today, I think there is a
possibility Russia might actually succeed in having
their claim recognized under international law. The
question then becomes whether Russia's activities in
the Arctic are really expansionist under a soft authoritarian
government or just 'righting a geographical wrong' with
modern sub-ocean research.
So, do you think the German "model" can
be cloned?
Is it possible for Russia to follow a 20th century
German path? Yes, I believe so. Is it likely? I think
it is more likely than not. The places to watch are
where any German-style expansion will take place but
I think we can be more specific and point to specific
Eastern European territory that would be the equivalent
of the Hitler's Sudetenland in the shape of Transnistria,
Georgia and East Ukraine. Also we could look to recent
moves against the Conventional Forces in Europe Treaty
by Russia and, perhaps, deployment of new weapons systems
by Russia in Kaliningrad.
Benchmarking Russia and China power cycles, it seems
that the riskier situation is more in the side of Russia's
counter-offensive in its decline cycle, than in the
rising cycle of China. Do you agree?
I do. On the long term trend, Russia is more likely
to experience a critical point on its power cycle curve
than China. Indeed, China's rise remains inevitable
and will continue towards 2030. This makes Russia 'riskier'
though probably not for Australia (the focus of my study).
As you will note from my paper, I was specifically seeking
the implications of the curves for Australian policy
in Asia and I discounted the trends for states outside
of the region. Offensive action on the part of Russia
seem most likely in the region surrounding Russia rather
than in the Asia-Pacific region and, thus, I discounted
the likely approaching Russian critical point in favor
of analysis of China, the US and Japan.
Benchmarking US power cycle and China power cycle,
do you think in the next 15 years we can have a first
clear power projection from China, as the US did in
the beginning of the XX Century? When I refer power
projection I do not mean the present soft power offensive
coming from China regarding Asia (including Australia),
Africa and Latin America.
As China continues to rise in power I think hard power-projections
are inevitable. Most would immediately look to Taiwan
as the obvious choice for Chinese power projection but
a focus only on Taiwan blinds the analyst to the greater
regional ambitions of China. Instead we might look to
a strengthening of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization
(SCO) pact or a more Sino-centric orientation of that
pact. We might also look for Chinese investment in aerospace
technologies and submarine technologies which would
be an essential part of any hard power projection by
China. The soft power offensive, however, remains important
to consider. If we look at the US example in the Middle
East today we see a hard power offensive (the war in
Iraq) followed by a soft power offensive (instilling
democracy, winning hearts and minds) has not worked
well at all for the Americans. The Chinese model (soft
power, then hard power) might be more effective in winning
allies and achieving Chinese ends in Asia.
What do you think of Japan? Despite its defeat in
the WWII and the crash in its geo-economic offensive
of the 1980's and beginning of the 1990's, its cycle
power continues in a rising curve. What can you forecast
from this Japanese resilience?
I think forecasting a growing share of the power in
the system is not unreasonable. Japan's rise, however,
may prove to be more sustainable than the rise of its
East Asian neighbor, China - one might forecast that.
The Japanese example, though, should not be considered
in isolation to the Chinese and US curves. The US is
in decline and the shift in power is to East Asia, specifically
Japan and China. Though China is forecast to be the
predominant power in the world system in 2015, Japan
is predicted to reach power parity with the US at around
2030.
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